Pan rules/filters

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Pan rules/filters

Dave-58
Is there any way at all to get Pan to filter and DELETE posts on sight?

There's a binaries group currently being swamped by very, very
large numbers of post.  So many that Pan and the OS is not
reacting well to a group with a couple million posts in it.  ie all
RAM used up (almost never happens on my 8GB PC) and swap
getting thrashed to the extent that the PC almost grinds to a
halt despite there being plenty of CPU power spare.

On at least one occasion, the memory/page management
choked and crashed/reboot the PC and that's a very unusual
thing to happen on FreeBSD!

--
Climate Change may be raising the sea levels, but the gene pool
seems to be drying up.


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Re: Pan rules/filters

mick
Is the PC choking at the downloading of the headers stage?
Or
Is it choking once all the headers are downloaded and you are trawling
through that group?

Forgive my ignorance but I thought a filter can only be set once a header is
downloaded.

I had a similar situation on a non binary group where once all the thousands
of headers had been downloaded I set a filter to ignore certain posters and
from then on everything has run smoothly.

If the PC is choking in the first instance, what you really want is not to
download the header in the first place.

More knowledgeable people here will no doubt have a better answer, one I
would like to know as well.

Mick.

-----Original Message-----
From: Pan-users [mailto:pan-users-bounces+poolcover=[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Dave
Sent: 22 January 2017 20:26
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Pan-users] Pan rules/filters

Is there any way at all to get Pan to filter and DELETE posts on sight?

There's a binaries group currently being swamped by very, very large numbers
of post.  So many that Pan and the OS is not reacting well to a group with a
couple million posts in it.  ie all RAM used up (almost never happens on my
8GB PC) and swap getting thrashed to the extent that the PC almost grinds to
a halt despite there being plenty of CPU power spare.

On at least one occasion, the memory/page management choked and
crashed/reboot the PC and that's a very unusual thing to happen on FreeBSD!

--
Climate Change may be raising the sea levels, but the gene pool seems to be
drying up.


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Re: Pan rules/filters

John Wendel
In reply to this post by Dave-58
On 01/22/2017 12:26 PM, Dave wrote:

> Is there any way at all to get Pan to filter and DELETE posts on sight?
>
> There's a binaries group currently being swamped by very, very
> large numbers of post.  So many that Pan and the OS is not
> reacting well to a group with a couple million posts in it.  ie all
> RAM used up (almost never happens on my 8GB PC) and swap
> getting thrashed to the extent that the PC almost grinds to a
> halt despite there being plenty of CPU power spare.
>
> On at least one occasion, the memory/page management
> choked and crashed/reboot the PC and that's a very unusual
> thing to happen on FreeBSD!
>
I feel your pain!  You can set a filter to ignore the user, but it won't
stop the downloads.

Here's what I'm doing,

[1] In the group pane, right click the group name

[2] Select "Get latest N headers" and enter 100000

[3] Select and delete all the bad headers

[4] Download and/or cleanup

[5] Repeat

I've also tried using the free usenet browser from "newshosting.com".  
It does a good job of filtering junk posts, so you never see them. But I
prefer Pan.





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Re: Pan rules/filters

Dave-58
On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 16:03:09 -0800, John Wendel wrote:

> On 01/22/2017 12:26 PM, Dave wrote:
>> Is there any way at all to get Pan to filter and DELETE posts on sight?
>>
>> There's a binaries group currently being swamped by very, very
>> large numbers of post.  So many that Pan and the OS is not
>> reacting well to a group with a couple million posts in it.  ie all
>> RAM used up (almost never happens on my 8GB PC) and swap
>> getting thrashed to the extent that the PC almost grinds to a
>> halt despite there being plenty of CPU power spare.
>>
>> On at least one occasion, the memory/page management
>> choked and crashed/reboot the PC and that's a very unusual
>> thing to happen on FreeBSD!
>>
> I feel your pain!  You can set a filter to ignore the user, but it won't
> stop the downloads.
>
> Here's what I'm doing,
>
> [1] In the group pane, right click the group name
>
> [2] Select "Get latest N headers" and enter 100000
>
> [3] Select and delete all the bad headers
>
> [4] Download and/or cleanup
>
> [5] Repeat
>
> I've also tried using the free usenet browser from "newshosting.com".  
> It does a good job of filtering junk posts, so you never see them. But I
> prefer Pan.

I always assumed that "Get latest N headers" would do just that and I'd then
miss the preceding headers.  I shall try that.

--
Climate Change may be raising the sea levels, but the gene pool
seems to be drying up.


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Re: Pan rules/filters

Dave-58
In reply to this post by mick
On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 22:21:29 +0000, mick wrote:

> Is the PC choking at the downloading of the headers stage?
> Or Is it choking once all the headers are downloaded and you are trawling
> through that group?
>
> Forgive my ignorance but I thought a filter can only be set once a header
> is downloaded.
>
> I had a similar situation on a non binary group where once all the
> thousands of headers had been downloaded I set a filter to ignore certain
> posters and from then on everything has run smoothly.
>
> If the PC is choking in the first instance, what you really want is not to
> download the header in the first place.
>
> More knowledgeable people here will no doubt have a better answer, one I
> would like to know as well.

It seems to be getting slower and slower as the headers download before
eventually coming to a grinding halt.  I've not actually seen it happen yet
since I'm either off somewhere else, or on a different virtual desktop. I'm
running Pan via SSH on a different PC, no GUI desktop there.

 Back when I used Windows, I used Agent and IIRC if the filter was based
on one of the headers sent before attempting to get the article, then that
header was deleted on sight so you didn't end up with 2 million headers to
then filter after the fact.

I just checked that group again and there are about 1.4 million header in 5
hours.  It's almost as if someone is using Usenet as there HDD backup
destination.  

<tinfoil hat mode> Or it's an "industry" related attempt to screw over the big
usenet providers. </tinfoil hat mode>

--
Climate Change may be raising the sea levels, but the gene pool
seems to be drying up.


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Re: Pan rules/filters

John Wendel
In reply to this post by Dave-58
On 01/22/2017 06:35 PM, Dave wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 16:03:09 -0800, John Wendel wrote:
>
>> On 01/22/2017 12:26 PM, Dave wrote:
>>> Is there any way at all to get Pan to filter and DELETE posts on sight?
>>>
>>> There's a binaries group currently being swamped by very, very
>>> large numbers of post.  So many that Pan and the OS is not
>>> reacting well to a group with a couple million posts in it.  ie all
>>> RAM used up (almost never happens on my 8GB PC) and swap
>>> getting thrashed to the extent that the PC almost grinds to a
>>> halt despite there being plenty of CPU power spare.
>>>
>>> On at least one occasion, the memory/page management
>>> choked and crashed/reboot the PC and that's a very unusual
>>> thing to happen on FreeBSD!
>>>
>> I feel your pain!  You can set a filter to ignore the user, but it won't
>> stop the downloads.
>>
>> Here's what I'm doing,
>>
>> [1] In the group pane, right click the group name
>>
>> [2] Select "Get latest N headers" and enter 100000
>>
>> [3] Select and delete all the bad headers
>>
>> [4] Download and/or cleanup
>>
>> [5] Repeat
>>
>> I've also tried using the free usenet browser from "newshosting.com".
>> It does a good job of filtering junk posts, so you never see them. But I
>> prefer Pan.
> I always assumed that "Get latest N headers" would do just that and I'd then
> miss the preceding headers.  I shall try that.
>
Well, I think your assumption is probably correct.  Sorry for the bad
advice.

John



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Re: Pan rules/filters

Duncan-42
In reply to this post by John Wendel
John Wendel posted on Sun, 22 Jan 2017 16:03:09 -0800 as excerpted:

> On 01/22/2017 12:26 PM, Dave wrote:
>> Is there any way at all to get Pan to filter and DELETE posts on sight?
>>
>> There's a binaries group currently being swamped by very, very large
>> numbers of post.  So many that Pan and the OS is not reacting well to a
>> group with a couple million posts in it.  ie all RAM used up (almost
>> never happens on my 8GB PC) and swap getting thrashed to the extent
>> that the PC almost grinds to a halt despite there being plenty of CPU
>> power spare.
>>
>> On at least one occasion, the memory/page management choked and
>> crashed/reboot the PC and that's a very unusual thing to happen on
>> FreeBSD!
>>
> I feel your pain!  You can set a filter to ignore the user, but it won't
> stop the downloads.

It should be possible to actually auto-delete posts based on filter
results (if it's not there's a bug), but it's a *TWO* step process, and
you guys seem to be only getting the first one.

First, to cover the before-download/after-download question from the
other subthread:

As Dave suggested, scores based on headers in the "overview file", which
is actually what's downloaded when so-called "headers" are downloaded,
take effect when pan processes the overviews, before the posts are
actually downloaded.  This includes message-id, subject, author, date,
lines and/or size (I believe that's a server option), xref (I think), and
references.  Other headers may be included at the option of the server
admin, but aren't included in standard overviews.

Scores based on headers not in the overview file can only take effect
after the full message is downloaded, as that's when pan gets those
headers.  Somewhat inconvenient, but if your group-spammer is nym-
shifting or something and you have nothing to go on but out of overview
headers, it can still be better than having to deal with it by hand.

As for step two, getting pan to actually take /action/ based on the
scores, that's what pan's preferences dialog, actions tab, is all about.  
Obviously, you're after the "delete articles scoring at" option on that
tab, but unless the score lines you'll be using have been tested for
awhile and you are comfortable with the number of false-positives you
get, if any, I'd recommend doing a limited run without deleting first,
just to be sure the scores are actually working the way you expect them
to.

It's worth noting that the score levels on the action options correspond
to the levels in the colors tab as well as the ones under the view menu,
header pane, match scores, section.   A reasonable setting for actions
might be auto-download watched (+9999 or above, optionally you can set
this to high, +5000 to +9998 or medium, +1 to +4999, instead), auto-
delete ignored (-9999 or below), and auto-mark-read low (-1 or below).  

Assuming you use the hide read posts option, the auto-mark-read "low"
score zone can then be used for posts you don't normally want to see,
thus the auto-mark-read, but you might conceivably want to go back and
see the full post if someone replies to it.  If the post is already
deleted, that's quite difficult, while if it's simply auto-marked-read,
you can still toggle view read and find the parent post that was quoted
but that you had auto-marked-read, in ordered to get the full context in
which the reply was posted.

--
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman


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Re: Pan rules/filters

Dave-58
In reply to this post by John Wendel
On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 19:55:56 -0800, John Wendel wrote:

> On 01/22/2017 06:35 PM, Dave wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 16:03:09 -0800, John Wendel wrote:
>>
>>> On 01/22/2017 12:26 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>> Is there any way at all to get Pan to filter and DELETE posts on sight?
>>>>
>>>> There's a binaries group currently being swamped by very, very
>>>> large numbers of post.  So many that Pan and the OS is not
>>>> reacting well to a group with a couple million posts in it.  ie all
>>>> RAM used up (almost never happens on my 8GB PC) and swap
>>>> getting thrashed to the extent that the PC almost grinds to a
>>>> halt despite there being plenty of CPU power spare.
>>>>
>>>> On at least one occasion, the memory/page management
>>>> choked and crashed/reboot the PC and that's a very unusual
>>>> thing to happen on FreeBSD!
>>>>
>>> I feel your pain!  You can set a filter to ignore the user, but it won't
>>> stop the downloads.
>>>
>>> Here's what I'm doing,
>>>
>>> [1] In the group pane, right click the group name
>>>
>>> [2] Select "Get latest N headers" and enter 100000
>>>
>>> [3] Select and delete all the bad headers
>>>
>>> [4] Download and/or cleanup
>>>
>>> [5] Repeat
>>>
>>> I've also tried using the free usenet browser from "newshosting.com".
>>> It does a good job of filtering junk posts, so you never see them. But I
>>> prefer Pan.
>> I always assumed that "Get latest N headers" would do just that and I'd then
>> miss the preceding headers.  I shall try that.
>>
> Well, I think your assumption is probably correct.  Sorry for the bad
> advice.
>
No worries, I've not tried it yet.  I guess I won't now :-)

--
Climate Change may be raising the sea levels, but the gene pool
seems to be drying up.


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Re: Pan rules/filters

Dave-58
In reply to this post by Duncan-42
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 05:32:49 +0000, Duncan wrote:

> As for step two, getting pan to actually take /action/ based on the
> scores, that's what pan's preferences dialog, actions tab, is all about.
> Obviously, you're after the "delete articles scoring at" option on that
> tab, but unless the score lines you'll be using have been tested for
> awhile and you are comfortable with the number of false-positives you get,
> if any, I'd recommend doing a limited run without deleting first, just to
> be sure the scores are actually working the way you expect them to.

Gawd, I completelty forgot about that entire section!  Thanks Duncan, that
has sorted the problem.  I set to delete on -9999 since I can be 100%
sure that the filter is correct based on long experience with the group in
question and the subject lines used by the spammer.

The only thing left is the message count doesn't update until I leave the
group and re-enter it.  That's likely a bug, or just a feature not yet
implemented :-)

--
Climate Change may be raising the sea levels, but the gene pool
seems to be drying up.


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Re: Pan rules/filters

mick
I have been using -9999 to Ignore the article, I then never see it.
In the scoring rule dialog box I see Increase, Decrease, Set, Watch and
Ignore.
Is Ignore doing the same as Delete?

The message count is the same here when using Ignore.  That also happens on
my other newsreader on my windows pc (MesNews), so I guess the reader is
totalling the number of available headers even though they are not being
(downloaded?) displayed.

mick

-----Original Message-----
From: Pan-users [mailto:pan-users-bounces+poolcover=[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Dave
Sent: 23 January 2017 13:36
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pan-users] Pan rules/filters

On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 05:32:49 +0000, Duncan wrote:

> As for step two, getting pan to actually take /action/ based on the
> scores, that's what pan's preferences dialog, actions tab, is all about.
> Obviously, you're after the "delete articles scoring at" option on
> that tab, but unless the score lines you'll be using have been tested
> for awhile and you are comfortable with the number of false-positives
> you get, if any, I'd recommend doing a limited run without deleting
> first, just to be sure the scores are actually working the way you expect
them to.

Gawd, I completelty forgot about that entire section!  Thanks Duncan, that
has sorted the problem.  I set to delete on -9999 since I can be 100% sure
that the filter is correct based on long experience with the group in
question and the subject lines used by the spammer.

The only thing left is the message count doesn't update until I leave the
group and re-enter it.  That's likely a bug, or just a feature not yet
implemented :-)

--
Climate Change may be raising the sea levels, but the gene pool seems to be
drying up.


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Re: Pan rules/filters

Dave-58
In reply to this post by Dave-58
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 13:35:36 +0000, Dave wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 05:32:49 +0000, Duncan wrote:
>
>> As for step two, getting pan to actually take /action/ based on the
>> scores, that's what pan's preferences dialog, actions tab, is all about.
>> Obviously, you're after the "delete articles scoring at" option on that
>> tab, but unless the score lines you'll be using have been tested for
>> awhile and you are comfortable with the number of false-positives you get,
>> if any, I'd recommend doing a limited run without deleting first, just to
>> be sure the scores are actually working the way you expect them to.
>
> Gawd, I completelty forgot about that entire section!  Thanks Duncan, that
> has sorted the problem.  I set to delete on -9999 since I can be 100%
> sure that the filter is correct based on long experience with the group in
> question and the subject lines used by the spammer.
>
> The only thing left is the message count doesn't update until I leave the
> group and re-enter it.  That's likely a bug, or just a feature not yet
> implemented :-)

Ok, just tested it fully by telling Pan to download the last days worth of
headers in the affected group.  The group message count kept going up
thoughout the the header download and the used RAM continued to drop
from over 5GB free ot 0GB free at which point the 4GB swap began to
drop.  Eventually, even free swap drops precipitously low such that the
kernels pagedeamon which handles memory page allocation goes from
negligible CPU useage to up to 25% (of one core), the response times
fall off a cliff and eventually Pan crashes.

Technically, this is not a Pan fault since it's the OS memory management
that is failing when it runs out of RAM+Swap to play with.  On the other
hand, if Pan is supposed to be deleting articles with a score of -9999 then
maybe it should be doing it sooner and freeing up the resources sooner.

Depending what Pan does or uses to manage it's databases, it may be
a 3rd party issue.

I'm not sure if there's a way to increase swap on this.  FreeBSD, like
Linux and unlike Windows, uses a swap partition.  4GB was enough when
I layed out the hard disk.  Now it isn't.  I'm not sure if there's a way
around this without a full backup, reforemat, restore.

--
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seems to be drying up.


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Re: Pan rules/filters

Dave-58
In reply to this post by mick
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 14:18:12 +0000, mick wrote:

> I have been using -9999 to Ignore the article, I then never see it.
> In the scoring rule dialog box I see Increase, Decrease, Set, Watch and
> Ignore.
> Is Ignore doing the same as Delete?
>
> The message count is the same here when using Ignore.  That also happens
> on my other newsreader on my windows pc (MesNews), so I guess the reader
> is totalling the number of available headers even though they are not
> being (downloaded?) displayed.

Setting "Ignore" is the same as setting the score to -9999 which by default
are not displayed in the header pane.  Click View--> Header Pane and look
at the bottom section of that menu.

What Duncan said was to add to that function by using the
Edit -->  Preferences --> Action where you can choose to
enable various actions based on an articles score.

Simply scoring an article without setting an action will leave the
message count alone since nothing has happened to change it.

--
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Re: Pan rules/filters

Per Hedeland
In reply to this post by Dave-58
On 2017-01-23 15:35, Dave wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if there's a way to increase swap on this.  FreeBSD, like
> Linux and unlike Windows, uses a swap partition.  4GB was enough when
> I layed out the hard disk.  Now it isn't.  I'm not sure if there's a way
> around this without a full backup, reforemat, restore.

FWIW, FreeBSD can swap to files too, sort-of (i.e. by treating the file
as a device). See
https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/adding-swap-space.html
I believe Linux can do it too...

But this doesn't sound like a great fix for the problem.:-)

--Per

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Re: Pan rules/filters

Dave-58
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 18:08:23 +0100, Per Hedeland wrote:

> On 2017-01-23 15:35, Dave wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure if there's a way to increase swap on this.  FreeBSD, like
>> Linux and unlike Windows, uses a swap partition.  4GB was enough when
>> I layed out the hard disk.  Now it isn't.  I'm not sure if there's a way
>> around this without a full backup, reforemat, restore.
>
> FWIW, FreeBSD can swap to files too, sort-of (i.e. by treating the file
> as a device). See
> https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/adding-swap-space.html
> I believe Linux can do it too...
>
> But this doesn't sound like a great fix for the problem.:-)
>
> --Per

I suspected as much, but I had to take my shopping and didn't get a
chance to check :-)

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Re: Pan rules/filters

Dave-58
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 19:23:15 +0000, Dave wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 18:08:23 +0100, Per Hedeland wrote:
>
>> On 2017-01-23 15:35, Dave wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if there's a way to increase swap on this.  FreeBSD, like
>>> Linux and unlike Windows, uses a swap partition.  4GB was enough when
>>> I layed out the hard disk.  Now it isn't.  I'm not sure if there's a way
>>> around this without a full backup, reforemat, restore.
>>
>> FWIW, FreeBSD can swap to files too, sort-of (i.e. by treating the file
>> as a device). See
>> https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/adding-swap-space.html
>> I believe Linux can do it too...
>>
>> But this doesn't sound like a great fix for the problem.:-)
>>
>> --Per
>
> I suspected as much, but I had to take my shopping and didn't get a
> chance to check :-)

Thanks for the info. Job done.  Added an extra 8GB.

--
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Re: Pan rules/filters

David Kelly
In reply to this post by Per Hedeland


--
David Kelly N4HHE, [hidden email]
============================================================
Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.

On Jan 23, 2017, at 11:08 AM, Per Hedeland <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2017-01-23 15:35, Dave wrote:

I'm not sure if there's a way to increase swap on this.  FreeBSD, like
Linux and unlike Windows, uses a swap partition.  4GB was enough when
I layed out the hard disk.  Now it isn't.  I'm not sure if there's a way
around this without a full backup, reforemat, restore.

FWIW, FreeBSD can swap to files too, sort-of (i.e. by treating the file
as a device). See
https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/adding-swap-space.html
I believe Linux can do it too...

But this doesn't sound like a great fix for the problem.:-)

FreeBSD is happy to utilize multiple swap files and devices. It's best to distribute swap across mounted devices for best performance. There are ways to resize existing partitions without backup/wipe/repartition, but not without risk. The safest way is either a swapfile or add another device with a proper swap partition/slice. 

Swapfile is not the way to configure a fresh install, but it gets the job done.  Don't let quest for perfection prevent you from using a good-enough solution. 

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Re: Pan rules/filters

Per Hedeland
On 2017-01-23 22:48, David Kelly wrote:

>
>
> --
> David Kelly N4HHE, [hidden email]
> ============================================================
> Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
> On Jan 23, 2017, at 11:08 AM, Per Hedeland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>> On 2017-01-23 15:35, Dave wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if there's a way to increase swap on this.  FreeBSD, like
>>> Linux and unlike Windows, uses a swap partition.  4GB was enough when
>>> I layed out the hard disk.  Now it isn't.  I'm not sure if there's a way
>>> around this without a full backup, reforemat, restore.
>>
>> FWIW, FreeBSD can swap to files too, sort-of (i.e. by treating the file
>> as a device). See
>> https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/adding-swap-space.html
>> I believe Linux can do it too...
>>
>> But this doesn't sound like a great fix for the problem.:-)
>
> FreeBSD is happy to utilize multiple swap files and devices. It's best to distribute swap across mounted devices for best performance. There are ways to resize existing partitions without backup/wipe/repartition, but not without risk. The safest way is either a swapfile or add another device with a proper swap partition/slice.
>
> Swapfile is not the way to configure a fresh install, but it gets the job done.  Don't let quest for perfection prevent you from using a good-enough solution.

My point was just that increasing swap space (no matter how) is not a
great fix for the problem that pan needs huge amounts of memory - paging
is always painfully slow compared to not paging.:-)

--Per

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Re: Pan rules/filters

Dave-58
In reply to this post by David Kelly
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 15:48:58 -0600, David Kelly wrote:

> FreeBSD is happy to utilize multiple swap files and devices. It's best to
> distribute swap across mounted devices for best performance. There are
> ways to resize existing partitions without backup/wipe/repartition, but
> not without risk. The safest way is either a swapfile or add another
> device with a proper swap partition/slice.
>
> Swapfile is not the way to configure a fresh install, but it gets the job
> done.  Don't let quest for perfection prevent you from using a good-enough
> solution.

Yeah, this PC originally had 4GB or RAM so I made a 4GB swap partition for it.
It's since been upgrade to 8GB of RAM so 4GB of swap is not really optimal
anyway now.  It's also gone from, IIRC, 8.x to 9.0, 9. and now 10.3 of
FreeBSD doing in-place upgrade over a few years on the same 500GB HDD.

I could probably backup /var & /usr, leaving /, then recreate /var, /tmp,
swap and then a smaller /usr without too much issue but if I'm going to
all that trouble I may as well go the whole hog and build a whole new
disk layout on ZFS.

I may well just move the relevant user data over to my test box so I can
stay "live" and start from scratch on the main PC.  There's probably cruft
left over from past upgrades that could do with a clear out :-)

--
Climate Change may be raising the sea levels, but the gene pool
seems to be drying up.


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